Would this change the shidduch picture conversation?

[yuneeq]

As the years go by, I keep on hearing more and more stories of people who I know first hand -- who went out prior and rejected or got rejected -- and then years later - they ended up revisiting it and ended up getting married. One instance, they first met 10 years prior. Now, there are so many singles that are already in the late 30s, and in their 40s - and it's sad shadchanim have to call up and tell the boy -- the girl has frozen her eggs.

OTOH I'm sure most if not all of them are not the same person they were 10 years prior. Perhaps they originally gave it a chance but only became more compatible later on.

[pbf]

OTOH I'm sure most if not all of them are not the same person they were 10 years prior. Perhaps they originally gave it a chance but only became more compatible later on.

Basic emunah plays into this as well. There's a time for everything and it wasn't meant to be. The end

[pbf]

Here's my two cents.

I believe I come with a unique perspective being that I am a single woman who's been dating for a while, as well as a sister to a brother who's been dating for a while (in yeshivish circles) and is heavily involved with helping my mother (so kinda bring the boy/boy's mom's perspective as well).

There seems to be 2 conversations going on here, I will address both.

Girl's perspective:
I've been asked for my picture countless times. I don't like it, but will send if asked. I've been asked for a full body picture, which I've adamantly refused to send and I think is appalling.
I don't like the concept of people having my picture on their phones. I've had guys who know me that try to work on ideas pull up pictures of me in front of my friends and examine them.
That makes me extremely uncomfortable.
For girls who are a bit less 'pretty' or attractive, I think it's doing them a disservice. People will meet them, like them and their personality, and in some cases, she will become attractive to him.
Pictures don't allow that and they will say no off the bat.

Boy's perspective:
My brother is young and yeshivish, so he does not deal with his shidduchim, his mother does that for him. She will vet the girls and many times receive pictures as well. He never looks at them.
We will generally use the picture to get a sense of the girl and 'her type' rather than focusing on how pretty she is or isn't. You can tell a lot from a picture and when you are receiving so many names a day, you gotta narrow it down somehow.
I see both sides of the argument, yet I strongly believe that the genie is out of the bottle on this one. It's 2021, it's an age of constant communication, texting, Whatsapp etc. If the girl won't provide a picture, someone will and it will likely be a less flattering shot.

Regarding going out a second time. This is something I vehemently disagree with. It is not offensive or rude to say no after one date. There is nothing wrong with the person I dated, he is just not for me. Why would I waste anyone's time?
Yes yes I know you know of your aunt's cousin's neighbor who said no and was forced to go out a second time and now they are married with 14 kids. I've heard all those stories.

Bottom line - you need to know yourself and/or your child. Some people need time, some don't. But it's not offensive. I am thrilled when someone says no to me after one date.

*steps off soapbox. 

[mmgfarb]

Here's my two cents.

I believe I come with a unique perspective being that I am a single woman who's been dating for a while, as well as a sister to a brother who's been dating for a while (in yeshivish circles) and is heavily involved with helping my mother (so kinda bring the boy/boy's mom's perspective as well).

There seems to be 2 conversations going on here, I will address both.

Girl's perspective:
I've been asked for my picture countless times. I don't like it, but will send if asked. I've been asked for a full body picture, which I've adamantly refused to send and I think is appalling.
I don't like the concept of people having my picture on their phones. I've had guys who know me that try to work on ideas pull up pictures of me in front of my friends and examine them.
That makes me extremely uncomfortable.
For girls who are a bit less 'pretty' or attractive, I think it's doing them a disservice. People will meet them, like them and their personality, and in some cases, she will become attractive to him.
Pictures don't allow that and they will say no off the bat.

Boy's perspective:
My brother is young and yeshivish, so he does not deal with his shidduchim, his mother does that for him. She will vet the girls and many times receive pictures as well. He never looks at them.
We will generally use the picture to get a sense of the girl and 'her type' rather than focusing on how pretty she is or isn't. You can tell a lot from a picture and when you are receiving so many names a day, you gotta narrow it down somehow.
I see both sides of the argument, yet I strongly believe that the genie is out of the bottle on this one. It's 2021, it's an age of constant communication, texting, Whatsapp etc. If the girl won't provide a picture, someone will and it will likely be a less flattering shot.

Regarding going out a second time. This is something I vehemently disagree with. It is not offensive or rude to say no after one date. There is nothing wrong with the person I dated, he is just not for me. Why would I waste anyone's time?
Yes yes I know you know of your aunt's cousin's neighbor who said no and was forced to go out a second time and now they are married with 14 kids. I've heard all those stories.

Bottom line - you need to know yourself and/or your child. Some people need time, some don't. But it's not offensive. I am thrilled when someone says no to me after one date.

*steps off soapbox.

TY for posting this. People need to understand this middle of the road perspective and stop trying to be riteous on everyone else's behalf.

[yelped]

TY for posting this. People need to understand this middle of the road perspective and stop trying to be riteous on everyone else's behalf.

Far fewer people are middle of the road than you believe. We don't live in a perfect world.

[Saulius]

Regarding going out a second time. This is something I vehemently disagree with. It is not offensive or rude to say no after one date. There is nothing wrong with the person I dated, he is just not for me. Why would I waste anyone's time?
Yes yes I know you know of your aunt's cousin's neighbor who said no and was forced to go out a second time and now they are married with 14 kids. I've heard all those stories. 

When one is in their thirties, had to fly in, and hasn't been on a date for 7 years -- It's quite painful. Not to mention, to add to the pain, the day before that date -- the person who swindled a large amount of money from me well over a decade ago - his daughter got engaged the night before.

I get rejected because I don't learn full time, as I had to go work to pay back what people stole from me and caused me to go into debt.  In 2013 - I was sent to a shadchan of a girls seminary - I met with her and she spoke with my references -- and the only thing she had to suggest was a divorced giores -- which is not the end of the world -- but the girl was black.

[flyingace]

TY for posting this. People need to understand this middle of the road perspective and stop trying to be riteous on everyone else's behalf.

Big difference between shadchan scrolling girls' pics with the boys and the mother asking for a picture to get a feel for what the girl is all about!

[mmgfarb]

Far fewer people are middle of the road than you believe. We don't live in a perfect world.

Oh I know, that's kinda my point

[Lurker]

-- and the only thing she had to suggest was....

Buddy, you're entitled to your preferences and your opinions, but please strongly consider rewording this post.

[pbf]

When one is in their thirties, had to fly in, and hasn't been on a date for 7 years -- It's quite painful. Not to mention, to add to the pain, the day before that date -- the person who swindled a large amount of money from me well over a decade ago - his daughter got engaged the night before.

I get rejected because I don't learn full time, as I had to go work to pay back what people stole from me and caused me to go into debt.  In 2013 - I was sent to a shadchan of a girls seminary - I met with her and she spoke with my references -- and the only thing she had to suggest was a divorced giores -- which is not the end of the world -- but the girl was black!

I’m sorry for what’s happened to you personally.
I don’t mean to be insensitive, but it still doesn’t change my personal beliefs.

There will always be exceptions to every rule. Obviously I will give things a second chance if I believe there’s even a small chance of it going anywhere, or if there’s mitigating circumstances (i.e someone traveled far)

[Saulius]

I’m sorry for what’s happened to you personally.
I don’t mean to be insensitive, but it still doesn’t change my personal beliefs.

There will always be exceptions to every rule. Obviously I will give things a second chance if I believe there’s even a small chance of it going anywhere, or if there’s mitigating circumstances (i.e someone traveled far)

I absolutely agree. There is such a thing as DOA - where even I said not in a billion years.

[Saulius]

But what bothers me, is that I had shidduchim where I have so many things of hashgacha pratis (that I felt haunted like hashem has my address). Hashem makes ten of crazy coincidences - and then I go out once and get rejected, and countless years later those same girls that rejected me are still single.

And now I have to say - I am jealous --  I see everybody around me getting engaged in their early or mid 20's, the couples grow with each other, there is attraction..  In my 20's, I flew transatlantic for girls that were in their mid 30s /  significantly older than me. But now at my age - I lost my interest, and I would rather stay single.

[AsherO]

I get rejected because I don't learn full time, as I had to go work to pay back what people stole from me and caused me to go into debt.  In 2013 - I was sent to a shadchan of a girls seminary - I met with her and she spoke with my references -- and the only thing she had to suggest was a divorced giores -- which is not the end of the world -- but the girl was black.

I find this terribly offensive.

[drosenberg88429]

As a born introvert with no sisters, I was a terrible first date.
Wasn't surprised that I didn't get a 2nd date after flying to a girl in LA, as my first dating experience.

My wife got better advice, give the guy a 2nd chance. After all, he flew to Kansas City to see you and it's your first time dating! The rest is history.

I guess my point is, things can change a lot more than you think from date 1 to date 2. I don't think that means you need to give a 2nd date, but don't be quick to just write it off. Giving a so called pity date may just alter the course of history.

That's personality, not hashkafa, worldview, philosophies, goals, ect. To a large degree, the first date is clarifying what information from your research is accurate, and what is inaccurate. (People lie and fabricate and make assumptions and tell you their opinions as fact all the time. To a large degree, meeting i and hearing what a person has to say for themselves s a lot more productive than hearing what everyone else has to say. Research after you met a person and can put things in perspective, and have specific reality based questions, is a lot more useful, according to many.)

If your marriage is chemistry based and not goal based, then by all means, give it a second date even if your beliefs are radically different. If you clearly are incompatible, though, then even should attraction develop, it'll only be a distraction.

How smoothly conversation flows in a first date is as irrelevant as how well the guy's car drives. It makes things more convenient, but it should be completely irrelevant when deciding whether something has any potential.

[drosenberg88429]

When one is in their thirties, had to fly in, and hasn't been on a date for 7 years -- It's quite painful. Not to mention, to add to the pain, the day before that date -- the person who swindled a large amount of money from me well over a decade ago - his daughter got engaged the night before.

This is awful. I'm so sorry for what you've been through. Others will be upset at you for sounding prejudiced, and they may even be right (although I'd love to know how many of them have dated people like that), but there's no monopoly on pain, and having people look at you like a third class citizen is excruciating. I can't imagine not being able to get a date for 7 years.

I hope things are better now.

[AsherO]

Others will be upset at you for sounding prejudiced, and they may even be right (although I'd love to know how many of them have dated people like that)

It’s the other way around, people are prejudiced because they haven’t bothered to date anyone “like that”, it would be an eye opener.

This is quickly turning into the Shidduch Crisis Master Thread, so I’ll tell you. Too much of the crisis is because marriage and relationships are so personal and each unique in their dynamic, yet when it comes to shidduchim the masses are all into one-size-fits-all cookie cutter rules, guidelines, and classifications. Every pot has its cover, and if we started looking at people as human beings instead of measuring them up like stats on a baseball card, we’d get a lot further.

/rant

[Shmulie]

Too much of the crisis is because marriage and relationships are so personal and each unique in their dynamic, yet when it comes to shidduchim the masses are all into one-size-fits-all cookie cutter rules, guidelines, and classifications. Every pot has its cover, and if we started looking at people as human beings instead of measuring them up like stats on a baseball card, we’d get a lot further.

+1000

[drosenberg88429]

It’s the other way around, people are prejudiced because they haven’t bothered to date anyone “like that”, it would be an eye opener.

This is quickly turning into the Shidduch Crisis Master Thread, so I’ll tell you. Too much of the crisis is because marriage and relationships are so personal and each unique in their dynamic, yet when it comes to shidduchim the masses are all into one-size-fits-all cookie cutter rules, guidelines, and classifications. Every pot has its cover, and if we started looking at people as human beings instead of measuring them up like stats on a baseball card, we’d get a lot further.

/rant

It's irrelevant if there's anything wrong with the suggestion. The reason she was suggested was because the suggester thought there was something wrong with both of them.

If I'm overweight, and I'm suggested someone where it is clear that the only reason they are being suggested is because they're also overweight, that's remarkably offensive. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the person who is being suggested. It means that you looked at me, and all you saw was a problem, and therefore you thought to match me up with someone else whose entirety you reduced to being a problem. Putting us both in the third class box and thinking that we're therefore compatible is insulting, even if neither of us belong in that box and possibly may incidentally be compatible.

[coffeebean]

Anyone has popcorn?

[mmgfarb]

It's irrelevant if there's anything wrong with the suggestion. The reason she was suggested was because the suggester thought there was something wrong with both of them.

If I'm overweight, and I'm suggested someone where it is clear that the only reason they are being suggested is because they're also overweight, that's remarkably offensive. It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with the person who is being suggested. It means that you looked at me, and all you saw was a problem, and therefore you thought to match me up with someone else whose entirety you reduced to being a problem. Putting us both in the third class box and thinking that we're therefore compatible is insulting, even if neither of us belong in that box and possibly may incidentally be compatible.

Or maybe people are smart and understand that there are some people who, for one of a multitude of reasons, are not going to get a yes from most other people. It doesn't do you any good to get suggested to people who are never going to go out with you in the first place. I'll agree that there are many people stuck into that box who, in reality  aren't that way and that's a big problem, but to think that it's never true is just being niave. Is it true that some shadchanim basically only see your one major, glaring flaw? Sure, but remember, those same people also see a "regular" person as just a list of where they went to school, grew up, etc. It's essentially the same thing, the only difference is, one kind of person has a much easier time getting married than the other but that's not necessarily the fault of the shadchan. Remember, for ever suggestion that you get offended at, there's someone out there who would be equally as offended by getting you as a suggestion.