Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?

[imayid2]

I once saw a clip from the above mentioned Rav Shapiro interviewed by the press after a major Satmar protest in Manhattan. He was asked to respond to Israel's human rights aggressions against Palestinians etc. He answered "Why aren't you asking me about China's human right aggressions?! Am I responsible for China's actions? why do you hold me responsible for Israel's actions".

What would he say if someone offered him condolences on 1400 Jews slaughtered in Israel? Would he respond similarly?

[EliJelly]

What would he say if someone offered him condolences on 1400 Jews slaughtered in Israel? Would he respond similarly?

Can't speak for him but I hope not! He should cry and should accept condolences for murdered Jews. The Satmar Rov also cried for the fallen IDF soldiers during the 67' war. (while the world celebrated the victories)

[imayid2]

Can't speak for him but I hope not! He should cry and should accept condolences for murdered Jews. The Satmar Rov also cried for the fallen IDF soldiers during the 67' war. (while the world celebrated the victories)

Then he can’t play it the reverse and pretend Israel is the same to him as China.

[EliJelly]

Then he can’t play it the reverse and pretend Israel is the same to him as China.

You cry on a lost family member but you can't be held accountable for their actions, of which you have nothing to do with nor support.  Evoking China was to get the idea I assume.

[Dan]

Your assumptions on something that was never tried. A few people proclaiming that is worthless, as long as it's not a widespread known phenomenon. I don't have high hopes anyway, instead we all run in solidarity with Israel, we all denounce and ridicule every AS out there on social media because that's the proven working method time and again.

Moiradik. All we need to "fix" a 3,700 year old halacha is less unity and more finger pointing.
Why didn't we try this sooner?

[EliJelly]

Moiradik. All we need to "fix" a 3,700 year old halacha is less unity and more finger pointing.
Why didn't we try this sooner?

Who say we didn't? You don't seem to know much on the subject anyway, besides that love for the state is the biggest component in our religion. There are actually lots of precedent to this in our history, from the times of רבי יוחנן בן זכאי and the בריונים, up until the times of Reb Yoseph Chaim Zonenfeld and Reb Yoseph Zvi Dushinski with the king of Jordan. I'd also advise you to never take a look at the letters of the Rashab, as you might stumble into much more of "lunacy, finger pointing and lack of unity" you'd be able to digest. 

[Dan]

Who say we didn't? You don't seem to know much on the subject anyway, besides that love for the state is the biggest component in our religion. There are actually lots of precedent to this in our history, from the times of רבי יוחנן בן זכאי and the בריונים, up until the times of Reb Yoseph Chaim Zonenfeld and Reb Yoseph Zvi Dushinski with the king of Jordan. I'd advise you to never take a look at the letters of the Rasahb, as you might stumble into much more of "lunacy, finger pointing and lack of unity" you'd be able to digest. 

Can't compare Zionists of old to the nobody's of today. Just like you can't compare misnagdim of old. Doesn't exist anymore. Full stop.

Can't compare pre-state anti-yiddishkeit to a state responsible to protect half the Jews in the world. Full stop.

I don't "love" the modern state of Israel, but I do love my fellow Jews and their need to be safe. You're spewing the same nonsense that enlightened Jews thought would protect them from the Nazis. Until they found out that they couldn't care less about their stances other than being born Jewish. It just made them look foolish at best.

[ExGingi]

I'm using Coleman as I have found him to be a fair and honest speaker, and he is not someone who came to this issue with a bias. Needless to say, there is loads in both videos I disagree with vehemently, including what I view as outright lies and lies of terrible commission.

Thanks for posting these.

I found Morris to be incredibly honest about the historical facts and analysis, even if there's a cognitive dissonance with his political position. One important takeaway is his final point that he doesn't believe there will ever be a peaceful solution (which IINM has been Bibi's position, that there is no solution, just long term management of the conflict).

Munayyer was rather consistent, and might sound convincing when unchallenged by FACTS (such as the Chevron 1929 massacre, and antisemitic attacks and expulsions from Arab countries) rather than theories as Coleman did.

Objectively speaking, just given the unchallenged portrayals, you have Morris claiming no peaceful solutions, vs Munayyer who claims to have a peaceful solution.

[yelped]

Can't compare Zionists of old to the nobody's of today. Just like you can't compare misnagdim of old. Doesn't exist anymore. Full stop.

Can't compare pre-state anti-yiddishkeit to a state responsible to protect half the Jews in the world. Full stop.

I don't "love" the modern state of Israel, but I do love my fellow Jews and their need to be safe. You're spewing the same nonsense that enlightened Jews thought would protect them from the Nazis. Until they found out that they couldn't care less about their stances other than being born Jewish. It just made them look foolish at best.

There were a number of Hungarian Rabunim who were Kanuim who later regretted their shita. One of them famously gave out a sefer regarding it.

[ExGingi]

There were a number of Hungarian Rabunim who were Kanuim who later regretted their shita. One of them famously gave out a sefer regarding it.

Anyone other than Tiechtel - אם הבנים שמחה?

[imayid2]

Anyone other than Tiechtel - אם הבנים שמחה?

Rav Burach’el from Munkatch

[yelped]

Rav Burach’el from Munkatch

Not so sure he wasn't already like this earlier on...

[ExGingi]

Rav Burach’el from Munkatch

AKA.....

Also technically not Hungarian. Carpathian.

[CountValentine]

Did any of them give a starting point? 

[EliJelly]

I don't "love" the modern state of Israel

Yet you found the "source" for the right to a state in the first Rashi In Chumash. #ReligiousZionism



Also, notable how the Rashab "blessed" them that if their aspiration will come to fruition they'll never succeed as a state. He sure forgot to bless them to succeed as they will be the ones "protecting half of the Jews".
   

to a state responsible to protect half the Jews in the world. Full stop.

Responsible for sparking the most antisemitism and bloodshed to Jews worldwide since their aspirations for statehood. Oh, we gotta love them now because they're the saviors for half Jews in the world.  לא מעוקצך ולא מדובשך

Here is a copy of letter from Reb Chaim Grenimann, a nephew from the Chazon Ish, certainly not a "Hungarian Kanui", which was printed in the H'mevaser alongside a handwritten photocopy, how he viewed the saviors of the Jews.

[yelped]

You're still conflating original Zionists with how we should deal with Jews in EY right now. The most ardent Zionist today is a totally different breed than the Zionists of 100 years ago.

[imayid2]

Yet you found the "source" for the right to a state in the first Rashi In Chumash. #ReligiousZionism

It is a valid source for the right for a religious state

[Dan]

Also, notable how the Rashab "blessed" them that if their aspiration will come to fruition they'll never succeed as a state. He sure forgot to bless them to succeed as they will be the ones "protecting half of the Jews".

Future tense ≠ Current tense. What happened, happened. That doesn't mean we take that same approach to a very different situation.
Somehow I think the Lubavitcher Rebbe was more in touch with that and what the Rashab would have done with that difference than you.

   
Responsible for sparking the most antisemitism and bloodshed to Jews worldwide since their aspirations for statehood. Oh, we gotta love them now because they're the saviors for half Jews in the world.  לא מעוקצך ולא מדובשך

You don't need to love the state to love the people it is now tasked to protect. This isn't hard to understand, it's a common sense approach that can be seen by packed halls of Yidden saying Tehilim in unity for our brothers, even though most are not yet religious.

You would never see a Lubavitcher saying Hatikva, but we'll go to the Nth degree to help a fellow Jew. This is more important than shouting to the 0 people who care whether you are a zionist, whatever that even means today.

[ExGingi]

The most ardent Zionist today is a totally different breed than the Zionists of 100 years ago.

While I think you are mostly correct, I can point to some who espouse similar ideas to the original Zionists (Einat Wilf, and to a lesser extent Bibi Netanyahu - though he seems to respect Torah Judaism, even if he personally doesn't ascribe to it even one bit).

[EliJelly]

It is a valid source for the right for a religious state

Yet it was cited as a source for the current secular state.
Also, this is true just according to some who saw a problem only with the State's secularism, The Rashab was fire on this idea, that even with a religious government the mere idea that we can have state on our own is a rebellion against God, and Jewish severity can only be by Moshiach. With that, all the chilukim between old zionism and today's zionism in their approach to yiddishkeit falls flat.