Starting Point Of Israel/Palestine Conflict?

[imayid2]

"ואהבת את ה' אלהיך שיהא שם שמים מתאהב על ידך שיהא קורא ושונה ומשמש ת"ח ויהא משאו ומתנו בנחת עם הבריות מה הבריות אומרות עליו אשרי אביו שלמדו תורה אשרי רבו שלמדו תורה אוי להם לבריות שלא למדו תורה פלוני שלמדו‏ תורה ראו כמה נאים דרכיו כמה מתוקנים מעשיו עליו הכתוב אומר (ישעיהו מט, ג) ויאמר לי עבדי אתה ישראל אשר בך אתפאר" can help.

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about which is how to deal with people trying to stamp out religion.

[ExGingi]

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about which is how to deal with people trying to stamp out religion.

You have no idea how wrong you are!

They are both politicians, and say whatever they believe can get them elected. So it's not about them but about the popular feelings. The politicians of the Charedi parties (especially the Ashkenazi ones) don't make themselves very likable to the general public (though IIRC Litzman was initially popular in the health ministry).

[ExGingi]

On what grounds is that so clear to you?

https://www.kikar.co.il/haredim-news/163770

I recommend you quote better sources.

The fact that they are so ignorant about basics of Yiddishkeit is because they are תינוקות שנשבו. Whatever they publicly say is just for political (and possibly monetary) gain.

[imayid2]

I recommend you quote better sources.

The fact that they are so ignorant about basics of Yiddishkeit is because they are תינוקות שנשבו. Whatever they publicly say is just for political (and possibly monetary) gain.

You haven’t quoted any source for your assertion that they have a halachik status of תינוק שנשבה. Many poskim hold otherwise.

[imayid2]

[ExGingi]

@EliJelly are you familiar with this letter?

I think @imayid2 can also benefit from reading it.

[ExGingi]

You haven’t quoted any source for your assertion that they have a halachik status of תינוק שנשבה. Many poskim hold otherwise.

רמב"ם ממרים ג':ג'
אבל בני אותן הטועים, ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותן אבותם ונולדו במינות וגידלו אותן עליו, הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס, ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודים ודתם, הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם, כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותן בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה.

[imayid2]

רמב"ם ממרים ג':ג'
אבל בני אותן הטועים, ובני בניהם, שהדיחו אותן אבותם ונולדו במינות וגידלו אותן עליו, הרי הן כתינוק שנשבה לבין הגויים וגידלוהו הגויים על דתם, שהוא אנוס, ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודים ודתם, הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם, כך אלו האוחזים בדרכי אבותיהם שתעו. לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותן בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה.

[ExGingi]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Lapid or Lieberman.

You, my dear friend, are clueless as to the backgrounds of these people (and most Israelis).

May I refer you to the video I posted in the past on DDF where the Rebbe responds to R' Tzvi Kahane.

[ExGingi]

https://x.com/tigaybarry/status/1719778443825442846

[Shaya E]

I've said it a million times in the past, but boy do we need a dislike button.

[imayid2]

This has absolutely nothing to do with Lapid or Lieberman.

You, my dear friend, are clueless as to the backgrounds of these people (and most Israelis).

May I refer you to the video I posted in the past on DDF where the Rebbe responds to R' Tzvi Kahane.

What about Rav Shloma Zalman Auerbach, also clueless?

[imayid2]

I've said it a million times in the past, but boy do we need a dislike button.

Consider it a challenge to have to explain.

[yelped]

Consider it a challenge to have to explain.

Not everyone has time or patience to type out a long and eloquent rebuttal. Having a "klap kop in vant" attitude doesn't help, either.

[ExGingi]

What about Rav Shloma Zalman Auerbach, also clueless?

1. How do you reconcile what he writes about those that grew up in kibbutzim with "ואף על פי ששמע אחר כך שהיה יהודי, וראה היהודים ודתם, הרי הוא כאנוס, שהרי גידלוהו על טעותם"?

2. I don't know what the שאלה he is answering here, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with "לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה, ולמשוך אותן בדרכי שלום, עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה."

3. Do you really think RSZA or RMF, or any of the poskim really know and understand the state of mind, education, and nurturing that people who are 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation removed from שמירת תומ"צ and לימוד תורה ע"פ המסורה received, to be able to say that #2 above is irrelevant or doesn't take priority?

I recommend you read the letter I linked to above.

[imayid2]

Having a "klap kop in vant" attitude doesn't help, either.

What does this mean?

[Ver hut gazugt]

What does this mean?

I understood it as dislike button won’t help.

[imayid2]

I understood it as dislike button won’t help.

In that case I agree because it’s the equivalent as saying “nu uh” to an argument, which is irritating.

[ExGingi]

You haven’t quoted any source for your assertion that they have a halachik status of תינוק שנשבה. Many poskim hold otherwise.

Do you even realize that some of these people are 3rd, 4th or possibly even 5th generation removed from proper Jewish education? That they literally don't know צורת אל"ף of Yiddishkeit? Can barely recite פסוק ראשון של ק"ש much less anything beyond? That they have been raised on the premise that שמירת תומ"צ might have been required for national preservation 100 years ago, but now the State of Israel replaces that need? How many misconceptions they might have about basics of Yiddishkeit?

It's not about quoting a source, it's about being familiar (intimately) with actual facts!

[imayid2]

Do you even realize that some of these people are 3rd, 4th or possibly even 5th generation removed from proper Jewish education? That they literally don't know צורת אל"ף of Yiddishkeit? Can barely recite פסוק ראשון של ק"ש much less anything beyond? That they have been raised on the premise that שמירת תומ"צ might have been required for national preservation 100 years ago, but now the State of Israel replaces that need? How many misconceptions they might have about basics of Yiddishkeit?

The issue is that they live in a society where they have the ability to educate themselves in Yiddishkeit should they choose to do so.