Messianism among Lubavitch

[EliJelly]

Response to @Side incomer ?
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13790.msg2786311#msg2786311

Nothing to respond there. He makes one kugel of צדיק הדור, and משיח ה׳ (a mere reference to the possuk רוח אפינו משיח ה׳ ...אשר אמרנו בצלו נחיה בגוים) and מלך המשיח- as the one who's literally destined to be the גואל צדק. Is he a Lubavitcher? That might explain it.

[imayid2]

I remember something about the Rizhener and בית משיח, what was that about?

Gotta find the sources for this:

[EliJelly]

I remember something about the Rizhener and בית משיח, what was that about?

They claimed to be descendants of מלכות בית דוד I think. 

[imayid2]

They claimed to be decedents of מלכות בית דוד I think.

I think he had a room called the mashiach room or something like that

[aygart]

Not possible

Quote from a Rov in Lakewood: "I am a chosid but my Rebbe is the Vilna Gaon"

[EliJelly]

Quote from a Rov in Lakewood: "I am a chosid but my Rebbe is the Vilna Gaon"

Reb Baruch Ber was a literal chosid of Reb Chaim. 

[aygart]

Who said only option?

If someone else shows up as moshiach chabad would go with them.

And FTR that is more than I can say about what Litvish told me about the Rebbe being moshiach.

This is a misunderstanding. Meshichistim believe that proclaiming the Rebbe is moshiach will bring moshiach sooner.

If moshiach is not the Rebbe, they'll gladly accept that and will ask the Rebbe or eliyahu their questions. But the Rebbe's kuch was about moshiach, the only debate is how to accomplish that.

There are definitely some among Lubavitch who believe that "the Rebbe gave over that he is Moshiach" and therefore any true chossid must believe that with out question and therefore continues to believe that "even though gimmel Tamuz happened" with the basic just being that they need to believe both a 100% true and not think about whether or not they contradict. Why would such a person suddenly change that attitude if someone else arrives on the scene as Moshiach?

[imayid2]

Why would such a person suddenly change that attitude if someone else arrives on the scene as Moshiach?

Depends how mashiach is revealed. If Hashem pronounces something unequivocally that contradicts the Rebbe, that’s a reason for a change of attitude.

But the thought experiment is flawed. It’s like asking someone what happens if mashiach doesn’t come by the year 6000. The very question is mufrach, there is no such scenario.

[aygart]

Depends how mashiach is revealed. If Hashem pronounces something unequivocally that contradicts the Rebbe, that’s a reason for a change of attitude.

But the thought experiment is flawed. It’s like asking someone what happens if mashiach doesn’t come by the year 6000. The very question is mufrach, there is no such scenario.

תפח רוחן של מחשבי קיצין

[imayid2]

https://seforimblog.com/2017/02/the-rabbi-rebbe-and-messia/

[jj1000]

There are definitely some among Lubavitch who believe that "the Rebbe gave over that he is Moshiach" and therefore any true chossid must believe that with out question and therefore continues to believe that "even though gimmel Tamuz happened" with the basic just being that they need to believe both a 100% true and not think about whether or not they contradict. Why would such a person suddenly change that attitude if someone else arrives on the scene as Moshiach?

תיקו

[jye]

Depends how mashiach is revealed. If Hashem pronounces something unequivocally that contradicts the Rebbe, that’s a reason for a change of attitude.

But the thought experiment is flawed. It’s like asking someone what happens if mashiach doesn’t come by the year 6000. The very question is mufrach, there is no such scenario.

I’m not sure it is absolutely מופרך. Rav Schwab was ok in theory with Chazal intentionally obfuscating the true date 6000 by obscuring the 165 missing years in order to thwart the מחשבי קיצין. On that basis Moshiach would actually have to come by our Hebrew calendar year 5835. (He later retracted for other reasons). There is no reason to rule out the opposite being true; that the year 6000 is actually EARLIER than the true year 6000 for reasons known to them. Additionally it’s not entirely clear that the Rambam takes the year 6000 literally though  the Rashba שו״ת חלק א ט׳ does along with most if not all other דיעות.

[Kmusic22]

How many lubavitchers does it take to change a light bulb?

None, the light never died.

How many litvaks does it take to change a lightbulb?

It doesn't matter; they have no humor.

We need to institute a dislike button on DDF.

[jj1000]

Saw what it was in reply to? I'm saying the jokes are old. And dumb...

[Kmusic22]

The first part was great, I took issue with the second part. Not all litvaks are yekkes.!
Some of us actually know how to make and take a joke🤭

[EliJelly]

https://seforimblog.com/2017/02/the-rabbi-rebbe-and-messia/

Wow, thanks for that as it has additional m"m. Amazing searching skills!

(Borsa rov was my grandfather so I'm somewhat interested in this parsha)

[imayid2]

I’m not sure it is absolutely מופרך. Rav Schwab was ok in theory with Chazal intentionally obfuscating the true date 6000 by obscuring the 165 missing years in order to thwart the מחשבי קיצין. On that basis Moshiach would actually have to come by our Hebrew calendar year 5835. (He later retracted for other reasons). There is no reason to rule out the opposite being true; that the year 6000 is actually EARLIER than the true year 6000 for reasons known to them. Additionally it’s not entirely clear that the Rambam takes the year 6000 literally though  the Rashba שו״ת חלק א ט׳ does along with most if not all other דיעות.

Yes, but this is a side point. Insert whatever year you want, or “what if J was revealed as mashiach”

[jj1000]

Some of us actually know how to take a joke

The evidence is not in your favor...

We need to institute a dislike button on DDF.

[gozalim]

I’m not sure it is absolutely מופרך. Rav Schwab was ok in theory with Chazal intentionally obfuscating the true date 6000 by obscuring the 165 missing years in order to thwart the מחשבי קיצין. On that basis Moshiach would actually have to come by our Hebrew calendar year 5835. (He later retracted for other reasons). There is no reason to rule out the opposite being true; that the year 6000 is actually EARLIER than the true year 6000 for reasons known to them. Additionally it’s not entirely clear that the Rambam takes the year 6000 literally though  the Rashba שו״ת חלק א ט׳ does along with most if not all other דיעות.

can you direct me to rav schwab’s retraction?
(not doubting)

[jye]

can you direct me to rav schwab’s retraction?
(not doubting)

https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/comparative_jewish_chronology.pdf