Messianism among Lubavitch

[koplonko]

Alas, it didn't happen and Yechi is very rare today outside of 770s basement, Tzfas, and the small handful of mushroom/yellow flag chabad houses. In fact most chabad houses and yeshivas will toss you out for saying yechi today, but YMMV.

Now you're stam hacking

[ExGingi]

Why do Chassidim think that Misnagdim of today think the Ga'on made an error? We absolutely don't!

That view is probably more heretical, and more out of line with widely held belief (with the exception of the few that will agree with your statement) than anything you might hear out of Lubavitch.

[koplonko]

From Wikipedia: He is also known as the Mitteler Rebbe ("Middle Rebbe" in Yiddish), being the second of the first three generations of Chabad leaders.

But there are seven altogether, so why is he middle?
P.s. if we would look deeper than Wikipedia, this whole thread would be closed

[Dan]

Lies

Meshichists are so much fun

I used to be one myself as a young teenager, but it was more to be l'haches against the anti hanhala

[Baruch]

That view is probably more heretical, and more out of line with widely held belief (with the exception of the few that will agree with your statement) than anything you might hear out of Lubavitch.

We both live in our own bubbles. But it will be very hard for you to get any litvak to say that the Ga'on made a mistake, not on this subject, or any subject.

[ExGingi]

We both live in our own bubbles. But it will be very hard for you to get any litvak to say that the Ga'on made a mistake, not on this subject, or any subject.

I fully agree that I live in a bubble, though this forum (and professional relationships) do get me to peek outside of the bubble.

Besides for living in bubbles, everyone rewrites and embellishes history to one extent or another.

So, could you honestly explain to me how not admiting it was a mistake is in any way better or more respectful of the Gr"a? What is the alternative?

The fact is that the direct talmidim of the Gr"a weren't proud of it.

And you really think that something that results in messira and murder isn't a mistake. If it's not a mistake, is it actually something worse?

[ExGingi]

Meshichists are so much fun

I used to be one myself as a young teenager, but it was more to be l'haches against the anti hanhala

My head is spinning from all the negatives in that sentence. Or as they say in Hebrew מי נגד מי?

[Baruch]

I fully agree that I live in a bubble, though this forum (and professional relationships) do get me to peek outside of the bubble.

Besides for living in bubbles, everyone rewrites and embellishes history to one extent or another.

So, could you honestly explain to me how not admiting it was a mistake is in any way better or more respectful of the Gr"a? What is the alternative?

If you truly want to hear an answer to that question, read the 3rd chelek of the book "HaGaon".

[ExGingi]

If you truly want to hear an answer to that question, read the 3rd chelek of the book "HaGaon".

Care to share it with me. Preferably in electronic format. I'll give you a PDF of "The Making of a Godol" in exchange. 

I am actually serious. I do want to understand the thinking. I also would like to see the purported haskomo of R Kanievsky.

[Baruch]

Care to share it with me. Preferably in electronic format. I'll give you a PDF of "The Making of a Godol" in exchange. 

I am actually serious. I do want to understand the thinking. I also would like to see the purported haskomo of R Kanievsky.

I have the physical book in Lakewood.

[churnbabychurn]

Key words, which unfortunately tie heavily into what the Novomisker wrote.

The fact is that the direct talmidim of the Gr"a weren't proud of it.

And you really think that something that results in messira and murder isn't a mistake. If it's not a mistake, is it actually something worse?

Speaking of results... Ironically, The common view amongst misnagdim today, is that maybe in past generations we didn't necessarily full understand the severeness of the hisnagdus. But after seeing the churban of chabbad (and maybe breslev to a lesser degree) over the last 100 years, we see bechush the forsight of the misnagdim.

@aygart seems to have been posting this recently,but he's too diplomatic about it.

[aygart]

Who introduced Gadol Hador?

The gemara

[aygart]

As I've said before, it's a natural outcome in Chabad as well as in other Chassidus. It's not something that's openly stated anywhere, it's completely toluy b'hergesh.

Hmmmm I've also did similar to that calling it a logical conclusion.

[aygart]

Just to give you a better night..

Actually, since tov lo lodom shelo nivra yoser mishenivra, it is actually very logical to want to die asap as long as gan Eden is guaranteed!

You are ignoring the end vachshav shenivro

[aygart]

How many Lubavichers do you know that won't ever say the Rebbe is mashiach in public but will tell you behind closed doors after a few shots? Thousands probably?

No reason the same can't apply elsewhere.

If they feel that way then why does it need a few shots?

[aygart]

Suspicious 

You would say the same thing with Moshe Rabeinu and people who revered him.

Some who revered him couldn't handle it when he was a day late and made a golden calf.

[jj1000]

I've been in the Litveshe world for over 30 years and never heard this idea come up. It seems like you met a weird guy once.

יפה שעה אחת בתשובה ומעשים טובים בעולם הזה, מכל חיי העולם הבא

And fwiw I've never personally met anyone elokistim so for cbc to think that's what people think in private sounds ludacris to me. But I'm sure he knows better.

[jj1000]

Speaking of results... Ironically, The common view amongst misnagdim today, is that maybe in past generations we didn't necessarily full understand the severeness of the hisnagdus. But after seeing the churban of chabbad (and maybe breslev to a lesser degree) over the last 100 years, we see bechush the forsight of the misnagdim.

@aygart seems to have been posting this recently,but he's too diplomatic about it.

Some who revered him couldn't handle it when he was a day late and made a golden calf.

I feel like this thread is coming in a big circle now albeit getting a bit nastier and less wanting an explanation than wanting a shtech.

When reading this thread and seeing there is halachic basis that moshiach can be from the dead, meaning there is not a halachic problem with believing that. Then how would that justify the misnagdim of old.

There has to be a clear distinction of something against halacha and something within the confines of halacha. If something is within the confines of halacha than it's really not fair to say this is why chassidus was a problem.

I think most people I talked to over the years that say the gaon was worried about chabad 200 years in the future believing their Rebbe is moshiach after he passed away (although I haven't seen that written anywhere from that time,  I'd be interested in seeing it if it was) just doesn't jive with the fact that there are halachic sources for it.

The whole talk about what other chassidim believe or admit, and many other side topics here are really off topic and side talks if the meat and potatoes of this thread.

[jj1000]

I think it's safe to say that this post has jumped the shark and descended into some weird witch-hunt.

It's doing nothing to change anyone's mind and the discussion is only causing the opposite of ahavas yisroel and helping out your fellow Jew to improve this world.

Thanks again to Side Incomer for enlightening us with alternate views from the other Chasidic courts and for proving that Chabad's belief system is within the realm of standard chasidic thought.

I apologize to anyone I offended, obviously this is a topic that causes very hot heads.  I hope you'll forgive me and I hope you'll be more open-inded and more willing to be dan l'kav zchus as well.

My only plea is that you stop worrying so much about what OTHERS are doing wrong and start worrying about what YOU can do right.

L'chaim.

I'm locking this, if someone doesn't want it locked PM me, but I'm pretty sure most would like it locked again from the feedback I am getting. Nothing new is being discussed.

ETA: https://shmoishelmoshiach.files.wordpress.com/2021/11/kuntres_shmoi_shel_moshiach_english.pdf

https://collive.com/halachic-book-proves-moshiach-can-be-from-the-dead/

[imayid2]

“Messianism” IMHO is a distraction.

Of course there is nothing heretical believing if someone’s mashiach even if they aren’t alive. It’s the shevil stuff that’s a red flag.

Do non meshichists do shevil stuff?