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I created an account to say this

I am a survivor of abuse

I tried to type up a longer, more detailed post but it got too hard. The bottom line is the following

There's no such thing as universal feelings, reactions, desires, needs that all victims share. Each one is an individual who suffered alone and carries the unique scars that stay with them and each one will react to future situations in life in their own way.

Therefore, there is no single response to abuse that will leave all victims feeling safe, secure, validated, supported, closure and everything else all the well meaning people here want to give them.

However, I think there is a single response that would leave all victims feeling further pain and trauma and that is "It can't be."

Rabbi Shimon Russell - How to Safeguard and Protect our Children

https://youtu.be/fefqSvXf0JI


« Last edited by Yehuda57 on January 12, 2022, 05:44:00 PM »

Author Topic: Chaim Walder dies  (Read 129173 times)

Offline WonderingYid

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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #581 on: December 30, 2021, 07:19:30 PM »
"Praising Chaim Walder" what did he do that was praiseworthy?

Is there anyone arguing that he does not have a history of years of helping children?

You don't have to erase the past in order to condemn his misdeeds.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #582 on: December 30, 2021, 07:48:31 PM »
Abusers are human beings too, but humanizing them too much is dangerous as it can be interpreted by their/other survivors of abuse as defending them or somehow rationalizing how they got to where they did, or worse yet what they did. Especially since Russell is doing it with an individual in therapy, and you’re broadcasting it on a public forum.

The topic here (as well as kleptomania) is a Machla, so let’s please call a spade a spade. Every sin is insanity in a sense: אין אדם עובר עבירה אלא אם כן נכנס בו רוח שטות. At the same time, they can’t just “plead insanity” and no longer be accountable.
Rabbi Russell repeated it in a public forum.

I think at least as important as helping victims is protecting future victims, whatever it takes to make sure the abuser (or potential abuser) gets the help they need to make sure they don't harm anyone going forward. Additionally, I think the best way too help the victim is for the abuser to overcome their problems and sincerely apologize. Making therapy accessible to them is the best way too achieve that.

I'm going to take R' Moshe Feinstein's opinion (which I heard directly from the person he said it to) over yours and consider it a yetzer hara and not a machla.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline zh cohen

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #583 on: December 30, 2021, 07:51:51 PM »
Abusers are human beings too, but humanizing them too much is dangerous

Not humanizing them is also dangerous.

If kids hear that only monsters are abusers, then they will think that there is no way that their teacher/uncle/rabbi etc., who they "know" isn't a monster is an abuser.

Offline haltkup

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #584 on: December 30, 2021, 08:20:07 PM »
One big issue here is that the "chareidi community" is basically writing off the victims when they are left to feel that the only ones who will acknowledge their pain is a group outside the community. That only compounds their pain. Besides the blow of the actual abuse they are again left with nowhere to go without leaving the community.
leaving the community may be the only way that they can deal with the immense pain and trauma that they experienced. Rabbi Russell's Manchester speech on abuse was eye opening.
Here is a link to a related shiur on the topic of "Why Are So Many Teenagers Struggling in Today's Generation? What We Can Do to Help Them?" presented last week by Rabbi Russell & Rabbi YY. (not necessary abuse discussed in this thread but some key thoughts on what constitutes trauma and its the impact on children) 
https://www.torahanytime.com/#/lectures?v=172700

Offline aygart

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #585 on: December 30, 2021, 08:22:33 PM »


leaving the community may be the only way that they can deal with the immense pain and trauma that they experienced.
Definitely if it is the only place they can get any support at all
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline flyingBlue

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #586 on: December 30, 2021, 08:50:16 PM »





As a child.

Full article & video
https://www.kikar.co.il/314295.html

P.S. : Moderators, please remove the 3rd word of the thread subject.



Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #587 on: December 30, 2021, 09:15:12 PM »
https://vinnews.com/2021/12/30/struggling-with-the-tragedy-of-chaim-walder-7-thoughts/

By R’ Yair Hoffman

In recent weeks, our youth have had much to struggle with, r”l.  Chaim Walder, a famous author in the Torah community, was accused of horrific actions in a virulently anti-Chareidi and openly racist newspaper.  Subsequently, a Bais Din was held that examined the evidence and heard testimony from a number of witnesses including recordings. The Beis Din released information, perhaps too prematurely, that Mr. Walder engaged in some very serious predatory behaviors.  Perhaps it was too premature, but their intention was to save the lives of others.  Mr. Walder took his own life by gunshot at the site of his son’s grave – a son that had passed away from cancer, r”l.  We need to get some perspective and direction on seven essential issues.

The first point is the issue of davening. We should be davening for victims of predatory behavior.  Many people do not realize that predatory behavior is truly a matter of Pikuach Nefesh.  It is far from harmless.  Victims are often scarred for life and the predatory behavior can cause all sorts of repercussions such as suicide, attempted suicide, alcohol abuse, drug abuse.  And it can effect three generations.  We should ask and beseech Hashem to help eliminate this horrible scourge, and also take action ourselves.  If you see something, say something applies here more than anywhere else.

The second point is the concern and love that we must have for Chaim Walder’s wife and children. They are entirely innocent and need our love and tefilos.  Picture, for a moment, what has happened here:  One month, they are on top of the world with a seemingly heroic father who helps people,and is a famous author. A short time later, all of that has been taken away from them.  Rachmana litzlan.  They need our love and our tefilos.

The third issue is about Rav Eliyahu, a choshuv Rav and the Chief Rabbi of Tzfas. Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, the son of former Sefardic chief Rabbi, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu zatzal, had convened the Bais Din to hear the allegations against, Chaim Walder. How should we view his actions in this matter?      Shouldn’t our Rabbonim and leaders be kabdeihu vechasdeihu to remove a possible takalah in Klal Yisroel?  Isn’t there the raglayim ladavar and beyond here that Rav Elyashiv zt”l spoke about (see Yeshurun XV p. 670)?  Dayan Weiss zt”l (Minchas Yitzchok Vol. VIII #148) was asked whether one is permitted to turn in someone who is speeding excessively in a residential area where there are both elderly people and young children. He ruled that one may certainly do so, from a kal vaChomer argument from the words of the Shulchan Aruch (CM 378:8-9) and the Sma. The rationale Dayan Weiss employs is that the person has the equivalent status of a Rodef in how he is endangering the public.   That is certainly the case here.  True, there are many things in which the Chareidi world does not see eye-to-eye with Rabbi Eliyahu on, but he is well-respected as a Talmid Chochom and a tzaddik.  But isn’t this the right thing to do?  Rabbi Eliyahu and his Beis Din concluded that the author was, in fact, guilty of numerous predatory misdeeds, rachmana litzlan.  Vilifying him here, then is wrong.  This is not just a case of comparing the punishment for being mevazeh someone versus the punishment for the prohibition of aishes ish.  There is the matter of possible public pikuach nefesh here.  Rabbi Eliyahu was concerned for a bor b’reshus harabbim, a public hazard.  And this was a Beis Din at work.

The fourth point is a sensitive one, but one that I had asked Rav Dovid Feinstein zt”l about while driving him to a Torah uMesorah meeting in Camp Romemu in upstate New York. Rav Elyashiv zt”l had paskened that one does not take off trumos and maasros on a certain type of food because human beings do not eat it.  I had asked, what if a Rav personally knows that it is human food?  What should be done in such a case?  Rav Dovid zt”l responded that the Rav should tell people his understanding of the metzius, and, in fact, he is obligated to do so.  It must be done, however, with the greatest of Kavod.  Let us not make a mistake.  An active predator has the halachic status of a rodef.  He must be stopped because his actions directly cause victims to hurt themselves.  I was personally involved in unmasking such a predator a number of years ago.  We had identified seven victims in therapy who had engaged in attempts toward suicide.  This is no exaggeration.  Not many people realize the damage that  predators do.  Rabbi Eliyahu had incontrovertible evidence here that children were victimized.  Rav Dovid’s psak here is more nogayah in regard to a predator than to the idea of taking off trumos and maasros on Bran.

The fifth point is the matter of the author having taken his own life. Suicide is a terrible aveirah from a Torah perspective. It is equal to murder according to the Rambam (Hilchos Rotzayach 2:2).  It should be made clear that this is incorrect behavior.  There is an exception when there is mental illness, but the tone of the note and the recordings do not reflect this. The letter that was left seemed more to reflect manipulative behavior than a state of mental illness. There is also the fact that he did leave a widow and orphaned children in the act.

The sixth point deals with lessons to be learned from this entire tragedy. 1] We should have greater resources available where people can reach out for help against predators. Amudim, for example, is a remarkable organization that is truly necessary. 2] We should also work hand-in-hand with the authorities to ensure that people at risk for suicide are safe.  We just don’t have the abilities or resources to do otherwise.  3] We should try to keep a lower profile on all of these issues with the caveat that the public be properly protected.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline justaregularguy

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #588 on: December 30, 2021, 09:44:24 PM »
very suspicious he said he had seven points and only discussed six…
nothings impossible- the word itself says Im possible

Offline YitzyS

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #589 on: December 30, 2021, 09:50:02 PM »
very suspicious he said he had seven points and only discussed six…
I'm assuming you are joking, but in the case you are not (as Poe's Law dictates), S209 did not post the entire piece. The final point, and the remainder of the article, discusses the notion of whether the books should be destroyed. And his stance - of not destroying the books, is made based on something I posted upthread:

Rav Moshe has a teshuva that is said to be talking about that music, though the Carlebach fans say it's not, because it's about listening to music made by a kofer.

ETA: I didn't read the whole piece when I posted. I think he concludes to yes throw out the books.

Offline JACKBLUE

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Offline yandmk

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #591 on: December 30, 2021, 09:59:00 PM »
Was this removed from VIN? Getting error 404
Same here. I'm assuming they were criticized for possibly delegitimizing R' SEs findings?
The letter from this BD in Tel Aviv, actually raises more questions than anything I saw until now.

Offline Saulius

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #592 on: December 30, 2021, 10:00:56 PM »
Was this removed from VIN? Getting error 404

Copy URL to https://cachedview.com

Offline S209

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #593 on: December 30, 2021, 10:24:41 PM »
Same here. I'm assuming they were criticized for possibly delegitimizing R' SEs findings?
The letter from this BD in Tel Aviv, actually raises more questions than anything I saw until now.
Fascinating, considering you have yet to give R’ SE’s BD any credit whatsoever until now.
Quote from: YitzyS
Quotes in a signature is annoying, as it comes across as an independent post.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #594 on: December 30, 2021, 10:39:01 PM »
Was this removed from VIN? Getting error 404

Works for me.

ISRAEL (VINnews) — A Rabbi who has defended alleged abusers in the past has spoken out in defense of Chaim Walder. Rabbi Nissim Ben Shimon, an Av Bais Din who is the former head of the Badatz Tel Aviv-Yaffo, released a letter Wednesday claiming that Walder did many good deeds and helped many people. He also insinuated that Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu did not have the right to declare Walder guilty.

However the letter does not comment about the specific allegations against Walder.

Here is the translated text:

“Since things are being quoted in my name, I want to clarify my position:

Last Wednesday Rav Chaim Walder came to me with another talmid chacham. He said that since allegations and claims were being made against him without his side of the story being heard, he wanted to sit with a Bais Din that would investigate and verify whether the claims and suspicions were true.

I said that I would do so BE”H, and I was going to sit with Rav [Mendel] Shafran [of Bnei Brak].

Afterward, Hagaon Rav Shmuel Eliyahu shlit”a called me and said that a Bais Din was already convened on the matter and there were many testimonies that verified the allegations were true. I asked him if he heard directly from the witnesses or through a third party (eid mipi eid).

He replied that based on the Gemara in Moed Katan, there was no requirement in this case to hear the testimony first-hand (because the conventional rules of eidus do not apply).

I replied that this case is not comparable to that Gemara. He responded that there are other psakim issued by another Bais Din as well. I asked him which one, and said the Bais Din in Petach Tikvah. I asked him to send me that psak din by fax, and he told me that rather than fax it, he would have a messenger bring it directly to me.

The messenger never arrived.

Afterward Hagaon Rav Shafran called me and said that we should sit [on a bais din] with Rav Eliyahu, but I told him that is not possible, because he had already heard multiple testimonies not in front of the defendant, and he even paskened.

Sadly we were not able to “stop the vehicle” in time, to the point where at the expense of his life, [Walder] was not able to continue living with the things they were spreading and writing about him.

And now I turn to anyone who is enlightened with truth, you must remember and know that he did many good things and went above and beyond to help families, and support students, widows, orphans, and myriad others.

To the family, I say that you should know that you had a great father zt”l, HaMakom Yenachem…”

According to the Jerusalem Post, Rabbi Ben Shimon defended convicted felon Shmuel Berland, a known predator who was proclaimed by a highly respected Bais Din to have engaged in extremely immoral behavior with women for many years.

In 2014, disciplinary charges were brought against Rabbi Ben Shimon after he facilitated a settlement in which a woman who was viciously abused by her cousin for seven years from age 11 to 18 agreed not to press charges, in return for 220,000 shekel.

It should be noted that Rabbi Eliyahu’s Bais Din invited Walder to appear and defend his case, however he refused, and sent threatening messages through his lawyers. In addition, Rabbi Eliyahu personally called Walder and urged him to do teshuva.

Visibly Jewish

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #595 on: December 30, 2021, 10:47:50 PM »
Following the discussion the last few pages - it's a really difficult topic with many subtopics, but there's been a lot of interesting and nuanced perspectives from various angles, perhaps more than usual. Always appreciate when you guys share thoughtful takes that encourage us to reconsider our opinions and feelings.
Visibly Jewish

Offline AsherO

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #596 on: December 30, 2021, 11:05:46 PM »

The sixth point deals with lessons to be learned from this entire tragedy. 1] We should have greater resources available where people can reach out for help against predators. Amudim, for example, is a remarkable organization that is truly necessary. 2] We should also work hand-in-hand with the authorities to ensure that people at risk for suicide are safe.  We just don’t have the abilities or resources to do otherwise. 3] We should try to keep a lower profile on all of these issues with the caveat that the public be properly protected.

A lower profile? Why?
DDF FFB (Forum From Birth)

Offline avromie7

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #597 on: December 30, 2021, 11:28:38 PM »
A lower profile? Why?
He definitely doesn't mean to sweep it under the rug.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline VacationLover

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #598 on: December 31, 2021, 12:10:37 AM »

Is this a reputable BD? Authentic letter?

Offline davidrotts63

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Re: Chaim Walder dies
« Reply #599 on: December 31, 2021, 12:16:17 AM »
Is this a reputable BD? Authentic letter?
They've wrote the same for berland too
(Quit) pulling out the flowers, and watering the weeds. -Peter Lynch